ZRT 2way or 2.5 way?

[Mark_1042]

I've been looking around for DIY towers using Scanspeak drivers and am just about settled on the ZRT, though I'm not sure whether to go with a 2-way or 2.5-way kit. I know that on Zaph's website they recommend a large room for the 2.5's (which I do not have), but I like to listen to my music loud once in a while so I'm still entertaining the idea of going with the 2.5's.

Can anyone speak to the loudness of the 2-way design? What about power handling for each of the options (2 way vs. 2.5 way)? I have 200W of clean power to throw at these babies so power is not an issue. Also, if I were to go with the 2.5-way, how do they perform at low volume?

A lot of questions, I know but I'd like to build a speaker that I will be more than satisfied with for at least the next 3-5 years. I plan on doing a sealed enclosure, but might entertain going ported especially if going with the 2 way. I also plan on adding a subwoofer in the near future. The speakers will be in a 12' x 20' room and will be placed about 1-2 feet from the wall, primary listening position about 2 meters away.

Thanks for any help.

[Lunester]

Mark,
2-way vs 3 or more does not matter much in the loudness game. What it comes down to is the driver excursion and thermal power capacity. I can tell you I have heard Meyer Sound labs small Monitors HD1's play an easy 115db at 2 meters and thump the hell out of my chest. This all with 150 watts on the woofer and 75 on the tweeter. At the same time I have heard their bigger siblings do the same thing at over 130 db and making me forget I had earplugs in. This sill maintaining 40-20k, +- .5db with less than 15 degrees phase shift. Maybe not fair as we are talking $5000-8000 self powered monitors.
You may want to list a few speakers you like how they sound, and see if anyone else who has heard them chimes in. Also what kind of power, as most amps add/subtract things...and in the ends its how your "system" performs. I personally enjoy listening to any speaker and amp combo I can, and its been interesting listening to the evolution through the years, with some being technology, and some my tastes in what I want to hear.

What do you have now?
What amp/receiver your pan on using?
Speakers you have listened too, or own, and what you thought of them?


good baseline since this is such a subjective topic.

[Mark_1042]

Thanks Lunester. My amp is a transistor amp, an Adcom GFA-555. I am using a Yamaha RXA-810 as a preamp for the fronts which will be ran off of the Adcom, when I add surrounds I plan on running them off of the reciever.

I haven't had a chance to audition very many speaker brands. I had a pair of Polk RTi A7's but returned them because I found the midrange perfomance to be unsatisfactory. I've heard some B&W's from the CM series and liked the way they sounded in the store, but those are way out of my price range. Apart from that there aren't really many shops around here that offer other options. I've been meaning to make it down to another local dealer to check out some B&W stuff from the 600 series - they also sell Paradigm and JBL.

So what would be the difference between a 2 way and 2.5 way ZRT then, just a better bass response? I had thought that ported allows the speaker to go lower, but adding an extra driver would allow the speaker to go louder, but perhaps this is incorrect?

Overall I'm looking for a much more detailed and forward midrange than what the Polk RTi's offered (which, IMO isn't difficult to achieve given the Polk's poor performance in this area. Budget is $1000 - $1500 for the fronts. I'm not too concerned with the center/surrounds at this point, my first goal is to get a decent pair of fronts and then add a sub.

Thanks again.

[Lunester]

Mark,
Ported allows for lower bass given the same physical size as sealed. By tuning the port resonance you can get more output at that range for given power, down side is once you get below the port turning the box basically vanishes and the driver is free to hit its mechanical limits (when driven too hard) and damage the driver. On the large PA's with are almost always ported, there are subsonic filters to prevent this kind of damage. With 2 ways producing subsonic frequencies it can be at the cost of midrange when improperly done or at loud listening volumes. If you plan on adding a sub, you are already at a 3-way system.

I will warn you that with any of the speakers you mention they tend to take a LONG time to break in. I use to take home the floor set and say I want to try those for a few days, before I take home the pair I will own. My experience with the Polks was that as they broke in, the upper midrange frequencies drove me crazy. To get the detail I wanted I ended up playing them louder, which lead to premature listener fatigue. I was not using as smooth of an amp as the Adcom, but they did not fit me back then. I have heard many a Polk in the right system that sounded excellent, but their tonal balance did not suit my taste. The JBL's always spelled listener fatigue for me till the broke in 1000 hours later. Even their concert cabinets I worked with, those titanium horns would rip the stubble off your face. Once broken in, they were so light and fast they were spot on at low and very loud (135db+) volumes. Amazing the power you could throw at them.

I will probably get in trouble for saying this, but my main rig is B&W Nautilus 804's driven by Bryston amps and Anthem preamp. The Brystons have a subtle warmth about them, and over all the system is EXTREMELY accurate. Sometimes too a fault, with a lot of the popular music I listen too. That being said, I really enjoy my Zaph 5.2 and 5.3 sets i have. I really need to get off my rear end and build another set of finely veneered boxes and sell them. I use them on a 16 watt home-brew(modded se5 16ls tube amp), and an Anthem MRX300. They are a very neutral sounding speaker after break in. I will admit was quite shocked, as I often find myself enjoying them when I break out my 80's rock and pop albums.

That being said a pair of SR71's are on my list to do this summer. Just got finished moving and need to get my woodworking shop back up and some honey-do's complete before I can play again. If you have the woodworking skillz and the time have you some fun and build any Zaph design or call Madisound and get some recommendations. I heave heard a lot of the SEAS speakers and they are sweet sounding, but hard to go wrong when they were driven by amps costing twice as much. if you are looking for clean low end, you would have to start with SR71's as the tuning cut off on the 5.X are set high as he designed them to be used with a powered sub.

Just my humble opinion, but given your power and budget I would start with a real nice sub design. I suspect you can do that for $300-400. if its output is adequate almost any good 2-way on Madisound's site can drive loud listening requirements when crossed over.

I would ask yourself this before you get too carried away on volume:

1. Do you have hearing damage that makes you listen loud? What frequency is the lossat ?
2. Have you had to get loud in the past to hear detail, you otherwise did not hear? (wrong speaker and/or amp combo)
3. Are you at a volume to overcome room noise floor....Do you need a bit of sound treatment?


Long term you want to enjoy what you have....

I find that the 5.3's I have more power than I could ever use with 16 watts.... so not really breaking 1 watt normally, so roughly 90db, at 1meter, and I am 2meters away....so 87db

The B&W's on the other hand, and room is 4x the volume of space.....my listening volume may be 95 decibels....100-105 of peaks in action movies.


Once I fix a rooms acoustics, amazing how the volume goes down. Even the 5.3's I feel a good thump with no sub at moderate volumes. Think of everything as a system, and make tweaks and you can easily get that budget.


Enjoy, and have fun with cabinets. If you are a woodworker you find that a sheet of $25 MDF goes a long way and you can build rough cabinets to get the feel for sound and aesthetics, then you build a set of cabinets you plan on keeping. Nothing quite works out design kinks like a full size test build.

[Mark_1042]

Mark,
Ported allows for lower bass given the same physical size as sealed. By tuning the port resonance you can get more output at that range for given power, down side is once you get below the port turning the box basically vanishes and the driver is free to hit its mechanical limits (when driven too hard) and damage the driver. On the large PA's with are almost always ported, there are subsonic filters to prevent this kind of damage. With 2 ways producing subsonic frequencies it can be at the cost of midrange when improperly done or at loud listening volumes. If you plan on adding a sub, you are already at a 3-way system.

I will warn you that with any of the speakers you mention they tend to take a LONG time to break in. I use to take home the floor set and say I want to try those for a few days, before I take home the pair I will own. My experience with the Polks was that as they broke in, the upper midrange frequencies drove me crazy. To get the detail I wanted I ended up playing them louder, which lead to premature listener fatigue. I was not using as smooth of an amp as the Adcom, but they did not fit me back then. I have heard many a Polk in the right system that sounded excellent, but their tonal balance did not suit my taste. The JBL's always spelled listener fatigue for me till the broke in 1000 hours later. Even their concert cabinets I worked with, those titanium horns would rip the stubble off your face. Once broken in, they were so light and fast they were spot on at low and very loud (135db+) volumes. Amazing the power you could throw at them.

Yep, that's the same issue I experienced with the Polks - the midrange was recessed and to hear the detail I was looking for I would have to turn the volume up. The RTi A7's have the crossover point between the mid and the woofer at about 120Hz. The mid didn't cross to the tweeter until 2.7kHz. IMO it made for a really sloppy upper midrange. I did hear some Polks from the LSi line that I thought sounded good (in the store though so I didn't spend alot of time with them).

I will probably get in trouble for saying this, but my main rig is B&W Nautilus 804's driven by Bryston amps and Anthem preamp. The Brystons have a subtle warmth about them, and over all the system is EXTREMELY accurate. Sometimes too a fault, with a lot of the popular music I listen too. That being said, I really enjoy my Zaph 5.2 and 5.3 sets i have. I really need to get off my rear end and build another set of finely veneered boxes and sell them. I use them on a 16 watt home-brew(modded se5 16ls tube amp), and an Anthem MRX300. They are a very neutral sounding speaker after break in. I will admit was quite shocked, as I often find myself enjoying them when I break out my 80's rock and pop albums.

B&W is very nice, I auditioned a pair of 683's last week - like you say extremely accurate. High priced, but good if you got the money. I was entertaining the idea of buying a pair of them before deciding to go the DIY route.

That being said a pair of SR71's are on my list to do this summer. Just got finished moving and need to get my woodworking shop back up and some honey-do's complete before I can play again. If you have the woodworking skillz and the time have you some fun and build any Zaph design or call Madisound and get some recommendations. I heave heard a lot of the SEAS speakers and they are sweet sounding, but hard to go wrong when they were driven by amps costing twice as much. if you are looking for clean low end, you would have to start with SR71's as the tuning cut off on the 5.X are set high as he designed them to be used with a powered sub.

Just my humble opinion, but given your power and budget I would start with a real nice sub design. I suspect you can do that for $300-400. if its output is adequate almost any good 2-way on Madisound's site can drive loud listening requirements when crossed over.

I would ask yourself this before you get too carried away on volume:

1. Do you have hearing damage that makes you listen loud? What frequency is the lossat ?
2. Have you had to get loud in the past to hear detail, you otherwise did not hear? (wrong speaker and/or amp combo)
3. Are you at a volume to overcome room noise floor....Do you need a bit of sound treatment?


Long term you want to enjoy what you have....

I find that the 5.3's I have more power than I could ever use with 16 watts.... so not really breaking 1 watt normally, so roughly 90db, at 1meter, and I am 2meters away....so 87db

The B&W's on the other hand, and room is 4x the volume of space.....my listening volume may be 95 decibels....100-105 of peaks in action movies.


Once I fix a rooms acoustics, amazing how the volume goes down. Even the 5.3's I feel a good thump with no sub at moderate volumes. Think of everything as a system, and make tweaks and you can easily get that budget.


Enjoy, and have fun with cabinets. If you are a woodworker you find that a sheet of $25 MDF goes a long way and you can build rough cabinets to get the feel for sound and aesthetics, then you build a set of cabinets you plan on keeping. Nothing quite works out design kinks like a full size test build.

I don't think I have hearing loss, though probably some damage from concerts and such. I sometimes have trouble hearing female voices but I think that is more selective hearing than anything. (j/k)

Admittedly, my thinking that a 2 way won't be able to approach the volume level I want probably stems more from a misunderstanding of sensitivity. Also when I see a 2 way speaker it makes me think that at mid to high volume there will be a significant amount of intermodular distortion - but with some of the newer drivers I imagine this effect has been minimized, to an extent(?). Most of the time I listen to music at mid to low volume, but I do like to turn it up once in a while, without distortion. Must still be the some of the kid left in me.

At this point I'm kind of leaning toward the Zaph 3.5 towers. It looks to be an older design but has a flat response and being a 3 way should provide some good midrange detail. The SR71's also look interesting, it seem like a lot of people are building that kit right now - but I've kind of got my heart set on a pair of towers. There's also a couple 3 way designs I've seen on the web that use Seas drivers, which look interesting as well.

Building some test enclosures does sound like a lot of fun. Hopefully I'll find some time to build and experiment with some things this summer.

Thanks again for your help, input is much appreciated.